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Old 23-05-2007, 14:56   #1 (permalink)
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Default Unintended Consequences...

Like most things in life, when the smoking ban comes in force in England on 1 July, it will have unintended consequences.

So who and what are the unexpected winners and losers?

The law of unintended consequences is always at work, in every area of daily life. The results can be good, bad and just plain odd.

Put simply, the actions of people - and organisations - always have effects that aren't anticipated. The subject fascinates academics and countless books have been written about it.

The law governs our lives and nowhere are the effects more pronounced than in government, where often the consequences can prove more powerful than the legislation they are a result of.

Nothing in life is exempt, so what are the unintended consequences of the smoking ban?

CAUSING PEOPLE TO TAKE UP SMOKING

You're down the pub, all your mates have nipped out for a cigarette, you don't smoke but don't want to sit on your own - what do you do? Join them. For some, standing outside while mates smoke has resulted in them taking up the habit.

"If the smoking ban in Scotland had not been introduced I would still be a non-smoker," says Andy Hughes of Edinburgh, where the ban came into force in March last year. "I started because I was being left in pubs and clubs alone for long periods of time, while the rest of my group were outside chatting and having a smoke.

"I put up with it for a few weeks but in the end I decided to join them. Being an asthmatic, I had always been against smoking. I never used to let anyone smoke in my car or house. When someone smoked in my company in a pub, I couldn't wait until they had finished their cigarette. It was still something I had a real dislike of and a habit I considered to be disgusting.

"Now I'll regularly smoke up to 20 cigarettes on a night out. I still don't smoke when not out having a drink and I hope it stays that way. There's no doubt a lot of good has come from the smoking ban, it's a lot more pleasurable having a drink in a smoke-free atmosphere and I'm sure healthier for bar staff and non-smokers, but for myself it has come at a price."

CHILDREN PASSIVE SMOKING

If you can't smoke at the pub and you don't want a fag standing outside, where are you going to light up? At home, is the finding of a recent study in Scotland on the effects of the smoking ban.

More smokers choose to stay at home and have a puff, exposing their children to second-hand fumes, says a report from the International Epidemiological Association.

Scottish pubs have seen a 10% drop in sales and a 14% drop in custom since the ban. But cigarette sales went up by almost 5% in the six months after the ban, according to figures from the Scottish Grocers Federation.

Every year more than 17,000 children under the age of five are admitted to hospital in Britain suffering from illnesses related to passive smoking, according to the Royal College of Physicians. Edinburgh University is now undertaking research to see if Scotland's ban has resulted in children being exposed to more smoke at home.

INCREASING GLOBAL WARMING

With punters who smoke being forced outside for a fag, pubs are keen to make them as comfortable as possible so they go back in and spend more money. Thousands are being spent by breweries on outdoor smoking areas.

Keeping the chill off smokers is high up the list of priorities, putting outdoor heaters on the shopping list. The introduction of the smoking ban in England is expected to trigger a huge increase in demand for heat umbrellas, potentially creating a new environmental burden.

Using a gas-fired heater for just one hour can waste enough energy to make 400 cups of tea, according to Friends of the Earth. Increased demand due to the smoking ban has prompted concern about exacerbating global warming. The LibDem environment spokesman, Norman Baker, has urged the government to act over the "wasteful practice" of patio heaters ahead of the ban.

Environmental groups say the heaters are energy-hungry and their advice is simple - if it's cold outside, wear a coat. But manufacturers say figures for how much carbon heaters emit are often inaccurate and misleading. Based on government statistics, they say the current number of heaters are responsible for 0.002% of all UK carbon emissions.

MAKING CHEFS THE NEW PLUMBERS

Recently the shortage of plumbers sent their wages sky high, prompting others to ditch well-paid jobs elsewhere to learn the trade and cash in. Now - thanks to the smoking ban - it's chefs.

Beer and fags go hand in hand for many and a lot of heavy smokers are also heavy drinkers. In a bid to offset the possible impact on alcohol sales of punters being turned outside for a cigarette, many pubs are focusing on food. It's resulted in the demand for chefs going through the roof and their wages could follow.

Jobs website Gumtree.com has seen a 37% increase in the number of adverts posted by pubs looking for chefs since the smoking ban in England was announced last December. It's a 114% increase compared with the same period last year, and demand is expected to keep on rising.

"The increased focus on food in the run-up to the smoking ban means trained chefs are very much in demand," says John Porter, food editor of trade newspaper The Publican. "But demand totally outstrips supply, as there is a real skills shortage in the industry. Pubs are having to really improve the wages and benefits they offer in order to fill vacancies."

Last year the average wage for a chef at a standard pub was under £25,000, now it's estimated to top £30,000 plus bonuses. Some companies are luring chefs from Michelin-starred restaurants with six-figure salaries to up their game when it comes to pub grub.


LINING THE POCKETS OF THE PAPARAZZI

The smoking ban is very democratic, even the rich and famous are forced outside for a fag and guess who's waiting for them - the paparazzi.

Within weeks of a smoking ban being introduced in New York, stars such as Leonardo DiCaprio and Kate Hudson were pictured outside restaurants and bars having a puff.

Such establishments used to be able to shield their famous patrons from the camera lens, but it will be much harder with smoking bans.

Celebrities now face a choice, forego the fag or stand a good chance of being snapped having it. What's the solution? Exclusive outdoor smoking lounges for VIPs perhaps?

Original Article Location: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6664871.stm

What's your view? This is what people commented on the article itself:

Quote:
You'll get more smokers standing outside pubs and gathering in beer gardens - so complaints from neighbours will also increase. So more arguments on the streets between drinkers and neighbours!
Geoff Harris, Bath
Quote:
I sympathise with the poor celebrities who may be photographed standing outside a building filling their lungs with tar. Diddums.
Nicholas Blake, Nottingham, UK
Quote:
We live in the South Wales Valleys, three doors away from a busy town centre pub where we have had absolutely no issues with noise in the eight years that we have been here. However, since the introduction of the smoking ban we have not had a single uninterrupted nights sleep. The ban, along with the recent licensing law changes that permit pubs to stay open for longer has created an outdoor social group who, often having indulged a little too enthusiastically, make a ridiculous amount of noise and have absolutely no thought for residents. The noise level is unbearable even with the windows closed and we are now sleep wearing earplugs. I'm not sure how we'll manage when the hot summer nights arrive, probably have to invest in an air conditioning unit ... very environmentally friendly!I would be very surprised if this ill thought out, nanny state ban hasn't seriously affected the value of our property. BTW, I'm a non smoker.
Ven, Ebbw Vale
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As for people taking up smoking because they're friends are outside doing it - seriously, get a backbone! I'd have thought by that age people were past doing things just because they're mates do.
AF, S Devon
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The first paragraph in this section, when the person said they took up smoking and now smoke 20 a night is ridiculous. Why not just go outside and not have a cigarette? I gave up smoking 5 weeks ago this week because of the ban. It's a great thing once you get used to it and the smell of your pub.
Kevin Brady, Dublin
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What about sales of good cigars plummeting. You can nip out for a quick ciggie, but can hardly stand outside during the time it takes to enjoy a cuban cigar!
Rob, Uxbridge
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How on earth can a smoking ban be a cause of someone taking up smoking - the idea is rediculous! I can understand the fact that non smokers will be left inside pubs alone whilst their friends go outside for a cigarette but even if the non smokers join them for the social aspects, they are not forced to join them in actually smoking themselves. Its just an excuse. And as for the smokers who claim they are forced to subject their children at home with more harm from passive smoking, they should just take a long hard look at their selfish, thoughtless attitudes and think of their children's health for a change. No excuse in the world can justify putting your children's health at risk purely bacause of a habit. There's lots of help and support out there now to help people to stop smoking, so if the help is there, I say use it.
Mark, stoke on trent
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Old 23-05-2007, 15:31   #2 (permalink)
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no offence intended at you Det, but ive seen lots of stuff in the media about how the smoking ban is going to affect england recently (hell the BBC are even doing a daily breakfast "count down" slot at the moment), when wales and scotland before it barely got a mention, and this threads caught me at the tail end of a bad day.

To be honest, much as i despise the ban, its really not changed much at all in wales, and im sure the scots have said the same, and i find it kind of offensive that a smoking ban in England is taken so seriously by the media, where those of us in other parts of the UK are apparently unworthy of the attention.

The smoking ban here has changed almost nothing. Most "public" enclosed spaces were already operating with no smoking policies anyway and smokers have always been used to the idea that sometimes they just cant smoke.

Once again det, my apologies for jumping on the thread, its just this whole "omg somethings going to affect england!!!!" thing has really irritated me. I am english, and much as i despise the welsh (despite having to live here) i still find it really ****ty that the media has discriminated against the other members of the UK in this way.
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Old 23-05-2007, 15:48   #3 (permalink)
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I think any costs are worth it tbh, maybe theyl ban smoking in your own home with children in next.
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Old 23-05-2007, 16:05   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Etruscan View Post
no offence intended at you Det
I wouldn't take offense, I never wrote it.

I'm just curious to find out more of what others think on it, which is just what you have done with your reply.

I can't see them ever getting away with banning smoking in the home as meow is saying though, for one it would be impossible to uphold, but at the same time, you'd have all the human rights groups out in force if they even suggested it. That and the whole "my home is my castle" type stuff, which I would probably even jump on.
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Old 23-05-2007, 16:07   #5 (permalink)
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I'm just glad more and more civil liberties are being taken away.
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Old 23-05-2007, 16:12   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meow View Post
I think any costs are worth it tbh, maybe theyl ban smoking in your own home with children in next.

maybe they will ban cars next as they produce more harmful emmisions than smoking does, maybe they will ban just about anything that does any harm to anyone at any time. At some point people are going to notice there slowly being stripped of all freedom by a nanny state gone politicaly correct.
Where will it end ?
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Old 23-05-2007, 16:22   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzcat View Post
maybe they will ban cars next as they produce more harmful emmisions than smoking does, maybe they will ban just about anything that does any harm to anyone at any time. At some point people are going to notice there slowly being stripped of all freedom by a nanny state gone politicaly correct.
Where will it end ?
Yes! Win.

I personally envisage it ending in one of two ways: fascist state or removal of state. With the amount of ignorance prevalent, I'd suspect the former is most likely what's going to happen. There are still a few trying to get it to go the other way though.
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Old 23-05-2007, 16:31   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darktidus View Post
Yes! Win.

I personally envisage it ending in one of two ways: fascist state or removal of state. With the amount of ignorance prevalent, I'd suspect the former is most likely what's going to happen. There are still a few trying to get it to go the other way though.
nah, as per usual we will all sit there and just take it, everyone will complain and moan but when it comes to doing something about it no-one will bother, look at France, Italy even Germany, if the people don't agree with changes they go on strike, here in the UK we moan but do nothing about it.

How it should work:-
We vote in a priminister
He makes changes to improve the country
If the people agree with the changes we let him carry on
If we don't agree with the changes we let them know and don't allow them to go ahead.
If they persist with changes we complain and a new priminister is elected.

In the UK:-
We vote in a priminister
He does what he wants too
we don't agree with the changes and complain
They go ahead anyway
we moan but do nothing as usual
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Old 23-05-2007, 16:47   #9 (permalink)
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I'm trying to figure out how many layers of sarcasm and satire are here. The original article seems quite amusing to me, but several of the responses seem to be serious, including some of the TF responses.

After a brief transition period, the smoking ban will have very little affect on pubs and restaurants.

Or am I having a problem with the language?
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Old 23-05-2007, 17:27   #10 (permalink)
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I dont smoke, every have, never will. I think this new law is taking things to the extream. They should be spending more money on helping ppl stop not moving them out of their favourite places. You cant force someone to stop smoking and stubbon ppl could view this as just a challenge to smoke more cos they are been told not too (we all have a hidden rebelious child in us somewhere)

More focus in schools and homes of young teenagers would probably be a better way to go than a ban. Most pubs I go to (thats not many btw) have rooms where theres no smoking allowed at all. Things where ok as they where, with designated non smokers areas. This is defenatly way over the top...
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Old 23-05-2007, 17:31   #11 (permalink)
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I liked the episode of Yes Minister on this subject....
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Old 23-05-2007, 17:38   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laz View Post
I'm trying to figure out how many layers of sarcasm and satire are here. The original article seems quite amusing to me, but several of the responses seem to be serious, including some of the TF responses.

After a brief transition period, the smoking ban will have very little affect on pubs and restaurants.

Or am I having a problem with the language?
The original article seemed to be an almost tongue n cheek type magizine article on the BBC website. I brought it onto TF and pasted it in the serious discussion section though, based on the comments that the people had given to the original article on the bbc site, as the article covers a subject that most people are passionate one way or another about, either as an anti smoker or as a smoker.
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Old 24-05-2007, 10:45   #13 (permalink)
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I think most smokers are being priced out of the habit to be honest.

I gave up a few months back due to the cost and most people I speak to who have given up have done so for the same reason.

Isnt a pack of 20 nearly £6 now or something? Crazy.
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Old 24-05-2007, 18:34   #14 (permalink)
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I totally agree with edd, its stupid that England are making such a big thing about it, in my experience its so much nicer going out when people arnt smoking everywhere, im not coughing, i can see infront of me! I dont wake up in the morning with my clothes buzzing of smoke, full of fag burns and my throat so minging i want to stick bleach down there!
If people want to jeopardize their health, then go for it, but people who want to go out and have a good time too shouldnt be made to put up with it, if your drinking alcohol it doesnt effect those people around you does it!
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Old 31-05-2007, 01:35   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzcat View Post
At some point people are going to notice there slowly being stripped of all freedom by a nanny state gone politicaly correct.
Where will it end ?
I think it will end up with everyone being wheezing little asthmatic speccy wimps, allergic to everything in the world and scared of their own shadows.
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Old 31-05-2007, 09:09   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Grael View Post
, if your drinking alcohol it doesnt effect those people around you does it!
doesn't it, depends how much you drink and how much a wally you become
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Old 31-05-2007, 11:33   #17 (permalink)
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ive smoked for ten years... my dad has smoked for donkeys years... every sunday my dad and i meet at the pub for a couple of beers before sunday lunch at my moms... we have done this every weekend for 12 years since i was 18 (17 ) When the smoking ban comes in we wont be doing it anymore because the both of us like a cigarette with our pints and refuse to freeze our knackers off standing outside to do so..

I enjoy my ciggarettes and i thought i lived in a free country where i was able to do what i liked (within reason obviously)

so my answer is the smoking ban is spoiling one of my family traditions and for that i am very bitter (<< excuse the pun )
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Old 31-05-2007, 19:46   #18 (permalink)
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doesn't it, depends how much you drink and how much a wally you become
Yes but it doesnt "generally" affect everyones health does it? unless obviously they glassing you etc, which is an extreme!
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Old 31-05-2007, 20:01   #19 (permalink)
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Yes but it doesnt "generally" affect everyones health does it? unless obviously they glassing you etc, which is an extreme!
More common than death from second hand smoke.
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