The Big DebateIf you feel the need to get your teeth stuck right into a heavy debate on a subject you feel really passionate about, then this is the place to do so. Post about religion, politics, laws and all things juicy like that here.
Personnally i find the idea frustratingly stupid. I dont think its good for animals to be hunted, yes it may be cruel. However, within nature animals are constantly chased and killed.. should be stop the fox chasing the rabbit?
Also on a point of liberty, which i feel strongest, who the hell are the government to tell anyone they cant go out into the countryside with a horse and some dogs and hunt a fox? Animal rights activists are restricting human rights, think about all the more important issues that could be delt with before we start looking at protecting animals... we have a crisis of poverty in this country and epedemic outside of it, can we not address this first?
Also the law is Stupid, you can hunt a rat or a rabbit, but not a hare or a fox... to start off with how are the dogs going to know the difference. secondly just because rats arn't as cute and cudly as foxes surley they have the same rights?
This has been discussed here very recently >.< However on the subject of animal rights, i was quite shocked to see on TV this am that fur coats are being made using 42 GSD puppies & 41 golden labradors
Personnally i find the idea frustratingly stupid. I dont think its good for animals to be hunted, yes it may be cruel. However, within nature animals are constantly chased and killed.. should be stop the fox chasing the rabbit?
Chased and killed for food but not ripped apart by 30 dogs commanded by 20-30 toffs watching it for personal enjoyment, its nothing less than a snuff movie with animals.
Also on a point of liberty, which i feel strongest, who the hell are the government to tell anyone they cant go out into the countryside with a horse and some dogs and hunt a fox? [urm...they kinda run the country?.] Animal rights activists are restricting human rights, think about all the more important issues that could be delt with before we start looking at protecting animals... we have a crisis of poverty in this country and epedemic outside of it, can we not address this first?
Also the law is Stupid, you can hunt a rat or a rabbit, but not a hare or a fox... to start off with how are the dogs going to know the difference. secondly just because rats arn't as cute and cudly as foxes surley they have the same rights?
there is 10x (estimate maybe more?) the number of rats than humans and plenty of rabbits too theres no chance of them going extinct whereas the number of foxes is decreasing rapidly over the past few years
That, and ultimately the decision about fox hunting is being taken away from those that work and live in the countryside and made by those who have nothing to do with it. Which, to me, seems wrong.
Chased and killed for food but not ripped apart by 30 dogs commanded by 20-30 toffs watching it for personal enjoyment, its nothing less than a snuff movie with animals.
So you have a problem with 'toffs' hunting? Would it be more agreeable if it was a working class/ urban sport? In fact if you read the statistics, a fox is VERY rarley caught, the sport it seems is more of a social occasion invloving horse riding. The fox is killed yes, but by enforcing the ban farmers are now employing more snare traps to kill foxes.. snare traps catch the fox fox and they starve or bleed to death.
urm...they kinda run the country?
Yes they do, but what is thier role as government? To serve the people and protect our liberties, not to enforce the will of others over a minority.
there is 10x (estimate maybe more?) the number of rats than humans and plenty of rabbits too theres no chance of them going extinct whereas the number of foxes is decreasing rapidly over the past few years
This is a load of rubbish, the fox population is not declining, where you heard that i would liek to know. If it was hunting would not have any significant impact on the fox population. You also miss the point, the ban protects the animal from 'cruel' hunting. What is their to say that hunting other animals not on the ban is in any way less or not cruel?
The Foxes live in the country Disley what about their choice?
don't forget about Townie foxes, they litter the street scavaging for food, and just hang around in packs looking hard....... oop thats just townies in general. Damn Chavs.
I think this is one of those discussions that many people just dont give a crap about, but its brought up time and time again either as a template standpoint for wannabe animal enthusiasts, or the reverse.
People kill dozens of slugs everyday with salt, noone seems to be bothered. Theyre on ur land, eating what ur growing. Wheres the difference?
Noone cares because they arent furry. And id rather be torn apart by dogs than doused in salt until all the osmotic potential of my body is drained past my slow and agonising death.
Should it be entertainment? No, i dont think anyone worth their salt (¬_¬ leave it) would be so deprived of entertainment as to go bully animals. But should foxes be hunted and killed? If theyre eating what ur growing, yes.
don't forget about Townie foxes, they litter the street scavaging for food, and just hang around in packs looking hard....... oop thats just townies in general. Damn Chavs.
I think this is one of those discussions that many people just dont give a crap about, but its brought up time and time again either as a template standpoint for wannabe animal enthusiasts, or the reverse.
People kill dozens of slugs everyday with salt, noone seems to be bothered. Theyre on ur land, eating what ur growing. Wheres the difference?
Noone cares because they arent furry. And id rather be torn apart by dogs than doused in salt until all the osmotic potential of my body is drained past my slow and agonising death.
Should it be entertainment? No, i dont think anyone worth their salt (¬_¬ leave it) would be so deprived of entertainment as to go bully animals. But should foxes be hunted and killed? If theyre eating what ur growing, yes.
-Hyp
well put Hyp, however i think that fox hunting is nto just a template for pro animal/against rights. its about the government infringing on your civil liberties. i will never in my life go fox hunting, i dont believe its right to go out and kill a fox.... BUT its is not my place to tell people that they cant. It makes me angry to think that because of some urbanite, middle/upper class haters (or wannabes, feeling jelous of teh pastimes of theses classes) a group of people are having their freedom taken away.
well put Hyp, however i think that fox hunting is nto just a template for pro animal/against rights. its about the government infringing on your civil liberties. i will never in my life go fox hunting, i dont believe its right to go out and kill a fox.... BUT its is not my place to tell people that they cant. It makes me angry to think that because of some urbanite, middle/upper class haters (or wannabes, feeling jelous of teh pastimes of theses classes) a group of people are having their freedom taken away.
Nope it is about Animal Rights. The Countryside Alliance thing is just an effort to muddy the waters as they know they haven't a leg to stand on. Animal rights laws have existed over a century, Cruelty to Animals is against the law, fox hunting is certainly that.
The CA is just like the BNP they try to create a them v us thing to get support. I regard them as the same.
Nope it is about Animal Rights. The Countryside Alliance thing is just an effort to muddy the waters as they know they haven't a leg to stand on. Animal rights laws have existed over a century, Cruelty to Animals is against the law, fox hunting is certainly that.
The CA is just like the BNP they try to create a them v us thing to get support. I regard them as the same.
Thats a disgusting comparision, unfounded and irrelavent. Any issue that effects groups of people has two sides, maybe three or four. To assume one side is correct and ignoring the other is ignorant, typical of an animal rights supporter to generalise and miss the point. There are other issues in this apart from animal rights, and i would argue that human rights should come before these. Freedom from oppression by the government and majority is why we have a democracy, people need to consider all sides of the arguement. In fact you could compare the Animal rights movemenet with that of Racist parties and groups (in this context)... they attack minorities without consideration for their needs.
And to say the issue is just concerning Animal rights is simply wrong. There are many other factors.. have you considred the number of hunting dogs that will have to be killed because they cant be looked after? have you considered those workers who rely on hunting to live, have you considered those people who enjoy hunting who can no longer do so, have you considered the hipocracy of the Bill passed?
If you want to discuss the pro's and con's leave your Countryside v Urban part out of it. I stand by what I said.
As for the implications of people who enjoy torturing and supporting torturing animals, well they can find other jobs and activities to occupy their time, it justs takes a bit of work. If the dogs have to be put down then it's a shame but that's not enjoyment of torture. Hundreds of animals are killed each day for food I have no problem with that or putting animals to death which spread diseases. What I do have trouble with is people who take delight in torturing animals, and am glad there are at least some laws to stop it.
If you found out about someone abusing someones pet dog you would probably be upset, this is no different.
If you want to discuss the pro's and con's leave your Countryside v Urban part out of it. I stand by what I said.
As for the implications of people who enjoy torturing and supporting torturing animals, well they can find other jobs and activities to occupy their time, it justs takes a bit of work. If the dogs have to be put down then it's a shame but that's not enjoyment of torture. Hundreds of animals are killed each day for food I have no problem with that or putting animals to death which spread diseases. What I do have trouble with is people who take delight in torturing animals, and am glad there are at least some laws to stop it.
If you found out about someone abusing someones pet dog you would probably be upset, this is no different.
ok, thats an interesting point. I do agree that laws protecting animals from systematic and cruel torture are fair. But is fox hunting really torture, if you read above you will see that hunts rarley catch or find foxes, when they do catch a fox it is killed quickly by the dogs, there is no way it can live for long being attacked by a dog, as a rabbit does not when attacked by a fox. Also would it not have been better to ban snaring? or poisoning? or shooting?
What are your reasons for calling fox hunting torture?
Indeed the lines of animal cruelty appear to be blurred.
If i swat a fly, noone bats an eyelid. If i smashed a dog with a sledgehammer, id be in jail.
Equally so, i will openly admit, i hit my dog. hes a Bullmastif, and weighs about 3 times as much as me. If i didnt hit him, and keep him in line, he could and maybe would have killed someone by now.
Of course this isnt nearly the same as someone setting a pack of dogs on a fox, im just exampling the lack of clarity on this matter.
My hopefully final point on this thread, is that while i think harming and even killing some animals can be deemed neccesary...i think the real anger comes from the enjoyment derived from Fox Hunting. I dont agree that setting a pack of dogs on a Fox should be fun...
Maybe youre right, maybe its too much to demand people stop doing this, and to force their liberties from them...but thats Law for you. Murder is against the law, id never argue that its unfair because if you want to just kill someone, you should be allowed. And while i realise a Fox isnt human, it does have rights...
But if you have to concede to letting people kill a fox, how do you stop them enjoying it?
Theres seemingly no good answer to the whole situation...
I think people who eat meat and say fox hunting is wrong are hypocrites. Fox's are vermin, would there be up roar if there was rat hunting? no.
Fox's kill farmers chicken and live stock, people against fox hunting just see the ocasional fox around town or there street and think awwww. but in the country side there a pain in the backside, most farmers work hard for a living spemding alot of money keeping things like chickens alive, and for some bloody mangey fox to come and rip it to pieces is just as annoying for farmers as chavs are for us people who live in cities and towns.
nice to see some good ideas coming out of this, what you say hyp makes a lot of sense. i would say that murder and killing an animal are morally different, we are, however arrogent it sounds, far more important and socially developed than animals thus making it worse.
Foxes are pests. One way or another, Farmers are going to (legally) kill them to stop them from attacking their chickens (or whaever). The fox population is not going to dissappear, so they will be killed somehow. Now, if fox hunting is banned then traps will be set to kill them, usually through more painful methods. Being poisoned or spending hours bleeding to death is far worse than being laid into by a pack of dogs.
The problem here is not that foxes are killed, the problem is that (usually upper class) people are the ones that partake in it. Which is why "We will ban fox hunting" has always been good for a party such as Labour that only appear to the lower classes.
People have a vendetta against those that do fox hunt, not the fact that its a bit of a disgusting sport. Its not anything i would ever do, but people should have the freedom to do it.
Fox Hunting...
, anyway...
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