The Big DebateIf you feel the need to get your teeth stuck right into a heavy debate on a subject you feel really passionate about, then this is the place to do so. Post about religion, politics, laws and all things juicy like that here.
but there was a serious point to my comment, even if it was put with some humour, that is - does life really start at the moment of conception , ie when one cell becomes fertilised and before it has even divided ? or does it start when it becomes 2 cells ? or 4 or whatever ? do we let science ability to keep babies alive outside the womb determine when life starts ? if we are talking about potential humans beings, then sperm is part of a potential human being. what is life even ?
When we know the answers to these questions, we'll all be gods in our own right. Until then, abortion remains legalised murder in my book. However, I do remember these laws coming in and I believe they were introduced for genuine if misguided reasons. Who or what has allowed them to condone a convenient form of contraception ?
Last edited by Bilko; 08-08-2009 at 09:25..
Reason: Correction of word
I don't think its convenient at all, its quite unpleasant for those concerned.
but you don't seem have a view on where to draw the line, which makes your point somewhat untenable. eg, the earliest is once a pregnancy test becomes positive, would you consider it murder if you terminate with a pill ?
and what about termination for medical reasons , ie to avoid a pregnancy with fatal results for the mother or a baby that will have at best a year of suffering such as for some conditions which are now screened for in pregnancy ?
but you don't seem have a view on where to draw the line, which makes your point somewhat untenable. eg, the earliest is once a pregnancy test becomes positive, would you consider it murder if you terminate with a pill ?
and what about termination for medical reasons , ie to avoid a pregnancy with fatal results for the mother or a baby that will have at best a year of suffering such as for some conditions which are now screened for in pregnancy ?
Correct on the first paragraph. I'm not medically or religiously qualified to draw a line and I'm certainly not an armchair know-all academic on such far reaching issues. That's the reason why I reject the argument for what has become legalised murder.
Pregnancy termination for medical reasons fits comfortably with the origins of the original intentions behind these laws. Like most people, I may not be comfortable with it but do not condemn it. This is effectively in the 'risk management' area of medical science so if a life or death decision has to be made then I support the doctors because I'm not one.
Fair enough, by the legal definition of murder, it's not. Next question please because before 1967 it was murder. What shall we call it now - legalised murder ? The abortion laws had to be written specifically so as to exclude it from that of murder laws.
NB the original abortion laws were introduced on the basis that only a few hundred actual abortions would take place each year because of exceptional circumstances eg. medical abnormalities, rape cases etc. Question; how have we managed to justify moving from a few hundred to 200, 000 legalised murders in 42 years. By the way, we're also at the top of the league in Europe for legalised murder.
So what we calling having a wank? After all, the sperm is alive at the point of ejeculation... You don't even have to wank even, supression of natural masterbation leads to wet dreams, which is essentially the exact same thing, release and murder of unused sperm. Hell, in that way of thinking, whenever a woman ovulates, it is a potential baby being naturally stamped out.
I mean, at what point does it go from being just egg and sperm, at what point should it actually be considered, developing child, murder, can't get rid?
I mean, at what point does it go from being just egg and sperm, at what point should it actually be considered, developing child, murder, can't get rid?
As previously posted by me:
"When we know the answers to these questions, we'll all be gods in our own right. Until then, abortion remains legalised murder in my book. However, I do remember these laws coming in and I believe they were introduced for genuine if misguided reasons. Who or what has allowed them to condone a convenient form of contraception ?"
Conclusion; we all appear to accept the justification for medical terminations and a few exceptions such as rape. Originally that was deemed to be just a few hundred each year.
Now we have in excess of 200, 000 terminations to order as a result of irresponsible sexual behaviour. This is the legalised murder element of my debating point.
Proposed solution; no second abortions, just compulsary sterilisation for men and woman medically deemed to be sexually irresponsible. This is not as bad as what happened in the 30s under Hitler. The other problem is breeding amongst the mentally incapacitated, therein lies a real problem for the future..........Is this a bit too controvercial ?
Proposed solution; no second abortions, just compulsary sterilisation for men and woman medically deemed to be sexually irresponsible. This is not as bad as what happened in the 30s under Hitler. The other problem is breeding amongst the mentally incapacitated, therein lies a real problem for the future..........Is this a bit too controvercial ?
To the point of being barbaric and far beyond this so called "baby murder" you refer to when addressing normal, controlled, ethically accepted, humane, abortion.
How the fek you can think abortion is unthinkable and murder, except under specific set circumstances of your dictation, yet think enforcing big brother style policed controlled sterilisation aceptable is beyond me...
You mention Hitler. As i'm sure you know, Hitler was also a control freak, dictating what people could think, what they could read, what they should know, how they should act, etc. Hell he went far beyond forced abortion and sterilisation, he wanted full on genocide of all non-aryan peoples. But he started small, by gradually removing certain rights, gradually putting in place systems that allowed the control of others, putting more power into his own hands, manipulating things to his own power position.
One question... Do you have sex at any point for purposes of pleasure? Or has it always in your life been only for purposes of pro-creation? I already know the answer and already know that either contraception, the pulling out technique or some other form of anti preganancy technique was used. So what if during a time when pregnancy was still an option, would the morning after pill have been acceptable? At what exact point would it have become too far down the lines to stop it, 1 day? 1 week? 2 weeks? 1 month? 2 months? At what point does the life form taken on enough human appearance to make it suddenly hit the core nerve that makes in morally unacceptable in your mind? After all, it's only consious thought that says in your head... This is life, must not kill it.
Damn good questions, I suppose we will all have to continue in our same old licentious ways. There's nothing wrong with good old fashioned nooky. We've been working on perfecting it for quite a long time now
However, you're right about Hitlers career, it all started with an innocent, well meant intention I'm sure but.........it was the thin end of the wedge to horrors the world had never seen before. Therein lie the dangers of legalising any form of imposed death - except of course murderers according to me. However, I do understand others don't share that view. Perhaps you would consider putting it up as a survey ?
I think one needs to weigh the reason and the circumstances against the length of time.
there will be a wide spread of opinion in the middle ground obviously with extremists at either end.
I think one needs to weigh the reason and the circumstances against the length of time.
there will be a wide spread of opinion in the middle ground obviously with extremists at either end.
Totally irrelevant to everything I've written and believe. Time for others to contribute to this debate without me.
I Anyway, one thing I have always struggled to comprehend is: Say abortion was banned. A woman had an unplanned pregnancy and decided to give her baby up for adoption. Is it not just as emotionally damaging for the mother + father and the child (who presumably later learns that they were not wanted) as abortion.
Abortion will not be banned in our lifetimes. It will probably be allowed to increase significantly.
Doh, I'm starting to hope you'd be made pregnant against your will so you'd be forced to carry a child you don't want for 9 months.
This is a debate LippoW - not a slanging match. There are plenty of sites working at the level you have written.
NB the differences between conversation, discussion (dialogue), debate and argument are quite significant.
Example, debate automatically assumes difference of opinion exist and a rational exchange of differing views will occur. It's only suitable for adult thinkers but age is immaterial as many young people possess some unique skills in this area. Conversely, many older people appear to go back to childhood levels of thinking when confronted with differing views. Debate is also not suitable for emotional people as it puts them under unnecessary stress when confronted by challenging opinions.
Example, discussion and dialogue is more about discovering what people have in common rather than challenging differences. It's often highly successful in mediation and counseling when common ground is sought. It does however depend heavily on peoples ability to seek information and opinions from other people so the ability to ask relevant questions becomes important.
Example, conversation is the easiest of these as it's normally a friendly exchange of non-contentious information amongst those we are comfortable with. Even when some bits of information are difficult to accept, this level are normally happy to raise their conversation level up to discussion and debate level.
As you've probably guessed, this breakdown of our verbal exchange is significantly influenced by culture, education, attitude etc..etc...and it comes with a health warning from me - Exercise caution if practicing it
Hope that helps LippoW - no financial charge will be imposed on you for this short piece of invaluable education so make a (fat) donation to TF please
This is a debate LippoW - not a slanging match. There are plenty of sites working at the level you have written.
NB the differences between conversation, discussion (dialogue), debate and argument are quite significant.
Example, debate automatically assumes difference of opinion exist and a rational exchange of differing views will occur. It's only suitable for adult thinkers but age is immaterial as many young people possess some unique skills in this area. Conversely, many older people appear to go back to childhood levels of thinking when confronted with differing views. Debate is also not suitable for emotional people as it puts them under unnecessary stress when confronted by challenging opinions.
I'm 15
Apparently there are 42m abortions per year worldwide. Imagine the overpopulation in some MEDCs (as they contribute for 82% of abortions) if abortion hadn't happened. In the UK, we're pretty full to be honest..we may not be able to cope with an increase that fast. I think abortion is necessary for those that really feel they need it.
Last edited by Toblerone; 09-08-2009 at 10:12..
Reason: Adding Stuff...
Thread cleaned and now reopened, so that, should anyone feel the discussion warrants continuing, it now can be.
Bilko account deleted upon official request, having recieved 2 prior requests for account deletion, both after informal in thread requests to essentially stop belittling other members within the community were given to user. It is a shame whenever a user makes such a request for such a trivial reason, however Total Format will not allow any individual to make it so that other users feel uneasy about being part of the community and will not just stand by and allow such things to continue unchecked, fortunately not many people take such a childish reaction to such things.
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