The Big DebateIf you feel the need to get your teeth stuck right into a heavy debate on a subject you feel really passionate about, then this is the place to do so. Post about religion, politics, laws and all things juicy like that here.
Former cabinet ministers, senior lawyers and a prominent campaigner for older people will today try to lift the threat of imprisonment hanging over relatives accompanying loved ones who go abroad to kill themselves.
Scores of peers are preparing to back a move by Lord Falconer, the lord chancellor until 2007, that has reopened the right to die debate in parliament.
The upper house will vote on an amendment to the coroners and justice bill tabled by Falconer which would mean that relatives who travelled with a family member to places such as Switzerland, where assisted dying is permitted, would no longer face the prospect of time in jail.
Falconer says the change would be humane and recognise the reality that growing numbers of Britons were going overseas to end their lives. It would also clarify the existing situation where, despite the Suicide Act 1961 making it an offence to "aid, abet, counsel or procure" a suicide, recent directors of public prosecutions have decided not to press charges against any relatives.
Baroness Jay, the former leader of the House of Lords under Tony Blair, is backing Falconer, as is Lord Warner, who was a health minister until 2006.
The government's decision to treat the issue as a matter of conscience and allow it to be taken as a free vote, where usual party whipping will not apply, means the outcome of the vote is hard to predict.
Personally if I was so ill and in pain that my life was really not worth living then I would hope someone would help me to die. Putting a family member in prison for helping a very ill (terminally) sick person die I think is wrong, after all, for most people that would be the hardest thing to do in their whole life. I hope the discussion does change the current laws.
Baroness Jay, the former leader of the House of Lords under Tony Blair, is backing Falconer, as is Lord Warner, who was a health minister until 2006.
Anything backed by Baroness Jay is automatically dodgy in my book. I haven't forgotten her days as the wife of Peter Jay when he was Britain's Ambassador to the US. They are of course long divorced. As for the ethics of this subject, too complicated for me but I refuse to play God in such a far reaching decision. As for myself, who cares, if the kids or relatives want to knock me off in such awful circumstances of illness - so what ? Anyway, nobody in our line (on either side) has ever had such an awful long term illness, we just feel a bit rough and snuff it.
I was all out in favour of euthanasia and assisting if needed, but that was before I had my other half point out the potential sinister side of it all. Working with ill animals, she deals with animal death and putting animals to sleep on a daily basis and she see's all to regularly how people get bored of pets and get them destroyed for no other reason than that they can and that they don't want anyone else to have them. Well of course it's not the same as humans, but ill humans could be very easily influenced and a dominating person could easily convince them that death is the only possible option left available to them.
Who actually has the right to say when enough is enough and what is to say it is the right decision at the right time? I'm not as such questioning euthanasia itself, more the route taken to get to the point of the death. I don't feel that it is at all possible for one set of policies to be put in place that covers the whole system, it is far too individual and every single case has to be looked at individually and scrutinised, before permission is considered, there is no going back once the action is taken, therefore it is something that could be seriously open to abuse.
I'm not against euthanasia, I just feel it needs dealing with very differently to how it is now, but differently to how the cattleshed are proposing.
The silly thing is according to something i heard on tv earlier noone has actually got punished for helping someone die.
Theres obviously the mental health aspect and thats a tough one and one you know misdiagnosed people will be screaming in the tabloids should their family member die with a problem that can be cured or medicated. Unless they can list a number of conditions which are unbearable to endure and cant be at least controlled.
For physical diseases, cancers etc which end in severe pain that is often not adequately relieved or results in the patient being unaware of anything then i totally agree with it.
Theres so much grey area though of whats the criterior, then depends on the person, their condition, age etc etc. Things like dementia would be hard to decide over.
Personally i think that people should be able to choose if they want to die. Its not as if they cant kill themselves anyway in a lot of cases, but thats far less pleasant and has much more stigma on the friends and family feeling theyve failed. Another factor is that a lot of people feel trapped in unhappy lives and knowing theres a way out if they really need it can make it easier to try to plod on.
How does the current law function? If you go to Switzerland to accompany your gramma to a hospice where assisted suicide is available, and you return a week later with her corpse in a box (or a jar), how does the UK arrest you. If the Swiss don't arrest you, how can you be prosecuted? Seriously, I'm confused.
How does the current law function? If you go to Switzerland to accompany your gramma to a hospice where assisted suicide is available, and you return a week later with her corpse in a box (or a jar), how does the UK arrest you. If the Swiss don't arrest you, how can you be prosecuted? Seriously, I'm confused.
Its not the death you get done for, its organising it in the UK. Like a conspiracy to commit type charge.
I guess technically if you go to france, plan it there and go from there to switzerland youd be fine
How does the current law function? If you go to Switzerland to accompany your gramma to a hospice where assisted suicide is available, and you return a week later with her corpse in a box (or a jar), how does the UK arrest you. If the Swiss don't arrest you, how can you be prosecuted? Seriously, I'm confused.
Assisting someone on suicide is a criminal offense. If i helped my sister hang herself they class it as the same as me taking her to Switzerland and getting it get done by the clinic over there.
So far the UK has yet to prosecute someone for it, as there is only a few known cases so far and its still s hot topic.
Plus you got the other factor where a doctor CANNOT kill someone, they are sworn to protect life, they have the same in the US with death row, a doctor cant inject a inmate to kill them and it leads to inmates not being properly killed and going through innmense pain before death.
This could very well happen here as doctors wont be able to euthanasia a dying person, it would have to be some sort of medically trained staff who has not sworn the oath, and who is not as well trained, again could result in very painful deaths.
I dont really agree with it, as people have said there is a sinister to it, I think maybe it should be considered in EXTREME cases, where there really is no hope for them, no quality of life at all, similar to the "swtiching off" the life machine to a brain dead person.
I've always been in favor for it, for me personally if i never recover from my illness, I'm reliant on others now as it is, and if it did get to the stage that i was told i would not get better but worse, i would be making serious investigations on this,
I will not be taking anyone with me that i love, i fear of what could happen to them.
its your life and if ya wanna take then you should be able to.
i don't see what its got to do with anyone else.
yeah, the decision shouldn't be anyones but you're own.
but its when you've got something like Multiple Sclerosis, where you don't have the ability to do it yourself or even indicate your decision, or anything else really - which kind of sucks, although they can keep you alive for years.
such cases where your incapable you need other people to get involved.
they can keep people alive for longer and longer now, yet the suffering you might end up having to endure,,, - if they let dogs suffer as much they'd be prosecuted.
as long as its voluntary, and checks are made to ensure people arnt just killed for convenience, I think its wrong to not have it.
Last edited by meow; 09-07-2009 at 11:47..
Reason: changed it
I call this a gutless way out because they have lost the human instinct to survive - just an easy miserable and cowardly option. I hate suicides and have no sympathy whatsoever.
These selfish assholes ignore the feelings of those left behind. NB I have known three people who have committed suicide in the last 30 years and the trauma has been horrific on innocent people - family and friends. I'm not in the least bit interested in all this clap-trap about 'the right to die' Just selfish bastards in my book with no thought whatsoever for those who have to deal with the real heartache of knowing that their loved ones died unnaturally.
Anyone thinking of suicide ? . piss off and do it quietly in a very far off land and don't inflict it on anyone before you go, leave no will, requests or last wishes.
People like me could not give a monkeys left tit if you decide to take such action - don't care how ill you are or. how you see the world - make the dicicion to die without help from some commercial operation. After all why pay to die, you'll do it anyway
I call this a gutless way out because they have lost the human instinct to survive - just an easy miserable and cowardly option. I hate suicides and have no sympathy whatsoever.
These selfish assholes ignore the feelings of those left behind. NB I have known three people who have committed suicide in the last 30 years and the trauma has been horrific on innocent people - family and friends. I'm not in the least bit interested in all this clap-trap about 'the right to die' Just selfish bastards in my book with no thought whatsoever for those who have to deal with the real heartache of knowing that their loved ones died unnaturally.
Anyone thinking of suicide ? . piss off and do it quietly in a very far off land and don't inflict it on anyone before you go, leave no will, requests or last wishes.
People like me could not give a monkeys left tit if you decide to take such action - don't care how ill you are or. how you see the world - make the decision to die without help from some commercial operation. After all why pay to die, you'll do it anyway
that is the most unbelievably outrageous announcement of selfishness Ive ever heard !!!!
:- your only thinking about yourself and how it affects you, you say you don't give a tit about anyone else.
so you've finally revealed your true colours ? lol.
if you had a dog would you keep it alive indefinitely if it was medically possible even if it was howling in pain 24hrs a day ? if so you'd deserve to be jailed.... why treat humans in a worse way.
my Gran was 99 when she died, and she was in a lot of discomfort for about 10 years, and was begging for them to let her die, she was being fed through a tube etc,,, she couldn't really see, or hear much, and couldn't get out of bed.
my mum also died recently after surviving second cancer. she survived 2 years more than the doctors had indicated, she too wanted to die at the end, but fortunately she didn't live in that state for more than a couple of days.
its very distressing when someone you love is in such a state that they see life unbearable.
my dad however died suddenly from a heart attack many years ago, but believe me there is no way to die that doesn't cause grief.
I feel truly sorry for you for having no understanding/compassion/empathy. unfortunately however I fear its an all too common reaction to suicide :- to just think of your own feelings and not of those whose life seems so full of suffering its unbearable - usually after many years of unbelievable suffering, and worse of all sometimes the suffering is needless albeit for a little bit of care and attention.
I would say also that I would not wish anyone dieing of suicide or anything else on you but unfortunately death is inevitable.
that is the most unbelievably outrageous announcement of selfishness Ive ever heard !!!!
:- your only thinking about yourself and how it affects you, you say you don't give a tit about anyone else.
so you've finally revealed your true colours ? lol.
if you had a dog would you keep it alive indefinitely if it was medically possible even if it was howling in pain 24hrs a day ? if so you'd deserve to be jailed.... why treat humans in a worse way.
my Gran was 99 when she died, and she was in a lot of discomfort for about 10 years, and was begging for them to let her die, she was being fed through a tube etc,,, she couldn't really see, or hear much, and couldn't get out of bed.
my mum also died recently after surviving second cancer. she survived 2 years more than the doctors had indicated, she too wanted to die at the end, but fortunately she didn't live in that state for more than a couple of days.
its very distressing when someone you love is in such a state that they see life unbearable.
my dad however died suddenly from a heart attack many years ago, but believe me there is no way to die that doesn't cause grief.
I feel truly sorry for you for having no understanding/compassion/empathy. unfortunately however I fear its an all too common reaction to suicide :- to just think of your own feelings and not of those whose life seems so full of suffering its unbearable - usually after many years of unbelievable suffering, and worse of all sometimes the suffering is needless albeit for a little bit of care and attention.
I would say also that I would not wish anyone dieing of suicide or anything else on you but unfortunately death is inevitable.
Sorry, I don't support any kind of self harm whether it's assisted or not. Look at history and like me, you may also see it as the 'thin end of the wedge'. I decided to stamp on this debate because the idea of assisted death (suicide) is becoming a bit too popular amongst those who fail to see the dangers. If that projects a bad image of me, sorry but you get the truth according to my experience.
sorry if my response was a bit strong, I accept your reply.
it is indeed an area which needs very carefull handling,
and also indeed thin ends of wedges sound scary, but that just means there are 2 sides to consider, just using that point alone is illogical.
however i expect people will be bound to have diametrically oposed views on this like religion, abortion, and various other topics weve had on TF.
so unfortunatly its hard for anybody to make a sensible decision.
theres a lot more to it than the issue of self harm, its about releif of suffering, if someone is suffering that much then the harm thats being done is far greater.
there are people who have had limbs with nerve damage amputated becuase the pain is too intense and all other efforts have failed, would this be self harm ? or assisted self harm unless they did it them selves ?
I have known someone who has had such intense clinical depression they have spent much of their time in hospital - no drug seemed to work. why on earth do we force people like that to endure such pain ? do we realy have the right to do that ? just becuase we can keep people alive doesnt make it right that we do so in every case.
just about everyone has an overiding drive to survive, it takes a lot to overide that for most people, however there are probably people who dont have such a strong drive to survive. I must have a hell of a bloody strong overload of survival instinct to have got through recent years.
with regard to the recent news story, I find it unfortunate the wife decided to not live just becuase her husband was going to too, however I can imagine what the alternative would of been like for her, coming back to face prosecution,,,
The wife had also been diagnosed with cancer, which was unspecified for type or severity. Fighting cancer alone might be daunting at 75.
There is an interesting law in many states of the US: when riding a motorcycle, the driver is not required to wear a helmet, but if he has a passenger, that person must wear one. The argument is that the driver is in control of his situation, and if he crashes and kills himself, that's his own risk and responsibility. However, if he crashes and kills his passenger, who has no control, that is unlawful.
sorry if my response was a bit strong, I accept your reply.
No harm done, everyone should have an opinion on such important issues then an accurate and democratic consensus of opinion will emerge. The important point in this particular thread is to accept that strong and defensible opinions are actually necessary. Some people will see this subject matter from a personal and possibly emotive position whilst others will take a wider pragmatic view. The legal fraternity will take the latter but all decision makers must be fully informed prior to reaching such a momentous decision.
House of Lords to vote on right to die
Linear Mode
