The Big DebateIf you feel the need to get your teeth stuck right into a heavy debate on a subject you feel really passionate about, then this is the place to do so. Post about religion, politics, laws and all things juicy like that here.
@ - meow - good articles and well picked up. Unfortunately they confirm something I was told many years ago by a continental gentlman. "Great Britain..ah yes ..they are what we call in our country - 'Island Apes' when it comes to doing something that really matters" I did not tell him I was a British soldier, finished my drink and left. Was he and his fellow countrymen right ? I wonder
Some of the things the Brits did in WW2 were amazing, along with a lot of the plans for if the germans had got onto our island. Lots of the trickery and cunning plans were amazing, the things the soldiers put up with etc, i dont think youd ever get that kind of spirit again.
we only really seemed to excel as a "country of people" in WW2, i somehow doubt todays people would excel as well in similar circumstances.
however I think its a fairly global trend.
Under no circumstances would I consider disclosing his country of origin, it would only feed the narrow mided steriotyped images many people have of other nations. I once said in these threads, only two nations of people in the world, good and bad. That will do for me.
On the 2WW point, yes many did excel in those conditions but crime and road / accidents were at an all time high. Unfortunately, no accurate records exist as Britain was to busy with other matters. I can however assure you that todays people could rise to the challenge if necessary but we have to reach rock bottom first.
Back to thread, real economic and social recovery will start when people recognise that if they are not willing to be part of the (tough) solution, they are (and will remain) part of the problem. Hence the reason it will take approximately 60 years for us to recover from this mess. Burying heads in sand is a term that comes to mind because it's easier. After all, some trough-gobbling half wit in a high position may have to be responsible for what they do
My solution, nobody can be selected as an MP until they have done military service for our country. My answer to those who don't like that, you are free to leave anytime you wish and if you conspire against this country, we would have our very own Camp Delta.
Some of the things the Brits did in WW2 were amazing, along with a lot of the plans for if the germans had got onto our island. Lots of the trickery and cunning plans were amazing, the things the soldiers put up with etc, i dont think youd ever get that kind of spirit again.
You've been watching too many 2WW propoganda films, if we had not dealt with their reconnoitre parties in the English Channel and in the air, they would have formed a Bridgehead that we would never have been able to destroy.
Be thankful for our Commonwealth troops, Russians and Americans. Russia alone is thought to have lost 26, 000,000 people out of a total war loss of 55, 000,000. Truth be told, we would have been well and truely stuffed.
The trickery and cunning plans were fine on a small scale but 750, 000 german troops were in line for the initial invasion. It's not known if more were to be made available but I can assure you, resistance would have been futile. What price for this sceptered isle !
Don't worry about soldiers putting up with hardships, they're good at it. It's innocent civilians putting up with hardships people need to think about.
I'm not sure what "people" you refer to really, individuals or politicians or the whole of society ? it will take action that involves changes in law to avoid this situation from continuing to get worse, more than just "people" realizing anything so dramatic. I think you are suggesting people will develop a sense of self sacrifice - a human nature that is rare. no one will do anything different unless there is profit in it or they are likely to get in trouble.
linking economic recovery with social recovery is an interesting combination lol
I think military service can affect the minds of some people in a very negative way, in many senses. especialy if forced into actual combat. I wouldn't want to have a prime minister that was affected in such a way and was either paranoid or trigger happy or whatever issues it may induce,, I'm also inclined to think the more intelligent are those that are more adversely affected.
I'm not sure but I don't think you can find in history a correlation of good politicians and military service, the ones that come to mind are Hitler, colonel Gaddafi ... although Ive no idea what if any military service they did.
You've been watching too many 2WW propoganda films, if we had not dealt with their reconnoitre parties in the English Channel and in the air, they would have formed a Bridgehead that we would never have been able to destroy.
Be thankful for our Commonwealth troops, Russians and Americans. Russia alone is thought to have lost 26, 000,000 people out of a total war loss of 55, 000,000. Truth be told, we would have been well and truely stuffed.
The trickery and cunning plans were fine on a small scale but 750, 000 german troops were in line for the initial invasion. It's not known if more were to be made available but I can assure you, resistance would have been futile. What price for this sceptered isle !
Don't worry about soldiers putting up with hardships, they're good at it. It's innocent civilians putting up with hardships people need to think about.
I dunno if you think i was implying in some way that we were an unstoppable force - i wasnt If by propaganda films you mean biased documentaries, then youre probably right there too.
My point or rather opinion was that some of the things we as a nation managed to pull together and achieve were quite impressive. Thats not to say that other countries didnt sacrifice more or were much stronger, or for example that they in our position may have done the same or better. Not in terms of firepower or superior combat skills, but in terms of people fighting for the country. Media at least would have you believe that people now would be like "sod it let them have it, our country sucks" or that theres a significant number of anti-UK extremists already in the country, which i wouldnt go as far as but isnt there a degree of truth in us being less patriotic? Or would the war scenario have had more to do with survival and a lot less to do with patriotism?
Im just impressed with what we managed under pressure as a people and despite many others opinion to the contrary i dont see us as good a nation now. Ignoring of course that any future large scale wars are likely to be more tech than fierce fighting anyway.
Gordon brown was an arse from budget number 2 after he got the job. He was nothing more than a chancellor of circumstance, the boom britain faced over the 10yrs had nothing whatsoever to do with his financial policies. Indeed he setup the fall britain was going to eventually, predicatbly and inevitably face now. I keep banging on about cyclical boom and bust but he really really went out of his way to ensure that we would have the deepest crisis ever.
I know i should back that up with evidence, all i'll say is, deregulation, but with more burocracy.
Gordon brown was an arse from budget number 2 after he got the job. He was nothing more than a chancellor of circumstance, the boom britain faced over the 10yrs had nothing whatsoever to do with his financial policies. Indeed he setup the fall britain was going to eventually, predicatbly and inevitably face now. I keep banging on about cyclical boom and bust but he really really went out of his way to ensure that we would have the deepest crisis ever.
I know i should back that up with evidence, all i'll say is, deregulation, but with more burocracy.
Correct. I personally have never voted for this party because they have never been able to manage a simple 'current account' I will also add, I grew up in a council flat in the 50's and this lot only made things worse for my Father and Mother in the long term.
As for military service, love it or hate it, only a disciplined approach to life, economics and social care actually works. When you start giving ordinary people a real say (T Blair & G Brown), chaos follows. The boom years that Britain enjoyed were ALL on the national credit card.
NB We've had too many years of cherry-picking the bits we like and been allowed to reject the bits we don't. A bit like modern daft kids at the dinner table really I suppose.
Bring back 'Maggie' and all her faults, I would re-impose Poll Tax tomorrow if I had real power. In simple terms, if you only walk on the pavement, you will pay 10p per year for that PRIVILEGE because it was put there at the expense of your fellow countrymen.
The culture of something for nothing would end immediately in my book - we would ALL be made to contribute something (for nothing) to the national greater good. If some don't like it, P - - -s off to another country.
On a last point, forget the other parties as well. They're just another bunch of over educated gutless wonders who have never faced real life threatening danger or, had the privilege of saving innocent people from imminent disaster. Now perhaps you understand why I see a term in the military as the only way of ensuring future generations elect competent leaders unlike the f - - - wits this country has managed to do for 10 + years.
You may also begin to understand now why real change has to be pushed through at the top first. Then...and only then...will society begin to mend itself of all its other ills.
well I think Ive exhausted my enthusiasm for this subject now, but a few last points from me as well.
would you want someone like Gordon brown next to you in the front line if you had to rely on him for your life ? - I don't think so somehow. people often say military service is good for stopping people being layabouts and such things, but the military service has a far more important role - that of defending the nation, i rather object to people seeing it as a dumping ground for delinquents or whatever. I would think you would treat your profession with more respect.
also it is such a stark contrast of this not allowed to lay a hand on child at school attitude, it seems absurd to consider both at once. by all means introduce harsh "boot camps" for delinquents etc and make sure there are sufficient ways to control unruly behavior in schools without just expelling them which hardly solves anything.
it seems the military service has drastically molded your point of view which is understandable and I think is reflected quite strongly in your posts. while you undoubtedly think this strong influence is definitely a good thing - certainly for yourself, however japan is one of the only countries that doesn't even have a military since WW2 and has been one of the strongest economic countries for its size so i don't really see it as necessary for everyone.
I also think that its reasonable to at least aim for a world where there is no war or conflict even though it may seem unrealistic. A civilization cant call itself civilized if it forces people to live in fear - such would be forcing people into military service.
I like the intention of a lot of what your saying but it seems born out of someone who has probably seen too much of life's unpleasantness and maybe used to giving/taking orders without question. I hope such comments arnt too blunt.
I always remember the 3 weeks I spent cycling around Scotland and the tiny Scottish island of Tyree which was so wonderful we stayed there for a whole week. they didn't have a full time policeman as there was never any crime, It took ages to get used to the attitude of "you don't need to bother to lock your bike because no one here will steal it" ...
I reject any idea that says we have no choice but to live in a world where if you don't lock you car then its entirely your fault When it inevitably gets stolen.
Maggie certainly was a strong leader and had some good strong policies. she also had one of the best economic advisers of our time. she was let down by one or perhaps two crazy ideas and a party that went against her on important financial policies - the resultant bad outcome proved she was right in the first place, then went against her in the end and as a result the Tories lost it big time.
unfortunately unless you intend a military coup you have to enter politics from the bottom not the top. its not a question of understanding why, its a question of understanding practicalities. you cant totally disregard the problem of needing to have policies which are popular or at least acceptable to the voting masses in order to stay in power. this was Maggie's only major mistake with the poll tax.
@ - meow - A fair and predictable reply. Military service is only one of several prerequistes I would put on the selection of a prospective MP and forms quite a small part in my ideal selection process. Unfortunately this does not really fit in this thread so I may start one under the title "MP Selection". NB like most, I don't want military service across the whole population either because equality issues would be impossible to address. This would ultimately undermine a lot of good work that's been done in the past.
The only unfortunate thing in your post is that it tells us what can't be done for perfectly valid reasons, it does not tell us what can be done to recover from this recession. NB it's easy to put hurdles up to things we don't like, much harder to come forward with solutions.
Conclusions:
No real support exists for these radical ways of helping to solve this recession so we may as well continue with this administration at the next election. After all, they've had more practice at cocking things up so why risk a new mob who are not yet aware of their mistakes ? I suppose it's fair enough really, we're not in any kind of imminent financial danger so why bother about the future until it arrives ? Come to think of it, preparation for any crisis has never been one of our strong points as a mation so why start now ?:
I must admit I do seem to have been just saying what cant be done, but that is at least a start if it makes people move on from unpractical ideas to practical ones.
however I'm afraid as my limited knowledge of politics increases it just makes me realize more how hopeless it is to really think you can do something. many of the things involved are too difficult to grasp in their entirety, as for working out what will work its like trying to predict the weather.
however I like to think that we have made progress over the years, maybe 2 steps forwards 1 step back a lot of the time. personally I'm kinda of the opinion now that really the media are really trying to hype all this economic trouble up. at the worst I certainly don't think people are gona be anywhere near starving to death over this. which is a lot more than can be said for other countries. and if the homes get repossessed its not like the homes are going to be destroyed or something they will still be there and should be available for use.
I think we need to start clamping down and saying no to our MP's and their families getting extra finances from our pockets for stuff that isn't relevant to their jobs.
Example.. MP's Husband orders porn (we paid for that in our taxes) and other films....
It's not what he watched, its the fact that the MP is able to have a *for example a sky package, and we pay for it out of our taxes.
The paying for a second home, is one thing, 2 in the same city (London) because he cannot be late for work, lazy bugger should get up earlier like the rest of us have to.
If all these special perks were to be stopped there would be enough money so that cancer patients could have their treatment and not have to fight the postcode lottery, our children would be able to have decent education, not use books that are so old they are outdated.
The government has become too corrupt to bother or care what average Joe needs to survive.
Thousands of people have lost their homes because they cannot keep up with the mortgages, there is supposed to be a safety net in place, but as yet several months down the like this hasn't been passed in parliament it's still sat in someone's in tray.
Its our fault some would say, we voted in this government
I The paying for a second home, is one thing, 2 in the same city (London) because he cannot be late for work, lazy bugger should get up earlier like the rest of us have to.
If all these special perks were to be stopped there would be enough money so that cancer patients could have their treatment and not have to fight the postcode lottery, our children would be able to have decent education, not use books that are so old they are outdated.
Its our fault some would say, we voted in this government
Correct, the special perks, pension, constituency office rent, staff, employers National Insurance contributions, IT, parliamentry recesses (holidays) and free travel, actually treble the basic salary. In other words the true cost of each ordinary MP is well in excess of £200, 000. Ministerial appointments almost double this again. Multiply that by 646 and that figure is does not include the pensions in the longer term. As you say, money becomes available for far more important things. However, I don't believe we have the basic courage to address these issues at present.
I would have no objections to these enormous costs if a Job Specification existed for them and a measurable output of work was evident but nothing of this sort exists as far as I know - I've looked and asked for a long time Nothing more than 'nasel trough athletes'.
Im sure it could be worse, im not sure how exactly, but time will probably tell ...
Very prophetic when you wrote that meow. After yesterdays budget we now know it's a lot worse than even I predicted. Any ideas for cutting unnecessary expenditure apart from those at the top of this thread ? I also predict there will be significant emigration from UK to other countries - starting next year with a trickle.
If by propaganda films you mean biased documentaries, then youre probably right there too.
Correct, the special perks, pension, constituency office rent, staff, employers National Insurance contributions, IT, parliamentry recesses (holidays) and free travel, actually treble the basic salary. In other words the true cost of each ordinary MP is well in excess of £200, 000. Ministerial appointments almost double this again. Multiply that by 646 and that figure is does not include the pensions in the longer term. As you say, money becomes available for far more important things. However, I don't believe we have the basic courage to address these issues at present.
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