The Big DebateIf you feel the need to get your teeth stuck right into a heavy debate on a subject you feel really passionate about, then this is the place to do so. Post about religion, politics, laws and all things juicy like that here.
Firstly I've heard Muslims condemn terrorist attacks loads of times
Secondly with Christians arguing with one another of course they're going to, we have done for centuries, there are lots of different faiths under the title "Christianity"
Your attitude in this thread Bilko is part of the greater problem, you are alienating are group of people, labelling them when infact you're original point is wrong.
Fair enough and an honest reply. Here is the real point of my debate. When a western leader condemns atrocities they will say something like this; "I / we utterly condemn these acts of terrorism / illegal violence " by........
I have never heard or read of that term being used by a muslim in Britain. If you can point me to a link where a British muslim has openly used the word "condemn" in the context of atrocities, I stand corrected and apologise.
Moving onto the subject of media coverage of these issues, I also believe lunatic organisations like the British National Party should be given the same media exposure as other fringe groups and then we will all get a wider and more democratic view.
My apologies if you feel my attitude to this thread is alianating your group of people - why ? I'm only asking the same questions I hear almost daily ! I would have thought most genuinely honest people would relish the opportunity for free debate ? Over to someone else..........
FaWhen a western leader condemns atrocities they will say something like this; "I / we utterly condemn these acts of terrorism / illegal violence " by........
I have never heard or read of that term being used by a muslim in Britain. If you can point me to a link where a British muslim has openly used the word "condemn" in the context of atrocities, I stand corrected and apologise.
Hundreds, nay thousands of links to news reports, direct quotes and articles about and from normal law abiding Muslims just trying to go about their lives the same as anyone else, who were effected just the same as the rest of society by terrorist attacks and who in great numbers came out and absolutely condemned the actions of terrorists who just so happened to share the same skin colour, race and religion as them.
I live in a rather predominently Muslim area, about 2 miles away from where the tube bombers planned their attacks from and I can categorically say, that most of the local Muslims were just as appauled as anyone else when those attacks happened and a lot were very scared at all the mindless, senseless racist revenge attacks that were happening to them as a result of the actions of people that just happen to have the same colour and religion as them.
Every race, religion, colour of people have good and bad among their ranks. People stereotyping an entire group because of the actions of a few extremists is disgusting.
Hundreds, nay thousands of links to news reports, direct quotes and articles about and from normal law abiding Muslims just trying to go about their lives the same as anyone else, who were effected just the same as the rest of society by terrorist attacks and who in great numbers came out and absolutely condemned the actions of terrorists who just so happened to share the same skin colour, race and religion as them.
I live in a rather predominently Muslim area, about 2 miles away from where the tube bombers planned their attacks from and I can categorically say, that most of the local Muslims were just as appauled as anyone else when those attacks happened and a lot were very scared at all the mindless, senseless racist revenge attacks that were happening to them as a result of the actions of people that just happen to have the same colour and religion as them.
Every race, religion, colour of people have good and bad among their ranks. People stereotyping an entire group because of the actions of a few extremists is disgusting.
Fair enough, read that also but I still can't find a quote by a muslim using the word "condemn" There are - as you say correctly - plenty of newspaper articles using the word condemn but no individual quotes as far as I can see. I must be missing something so I'll go away and research it further. Not sure what you mean by sereotyping, don't think anyone has done that in the postings ?
Fair enough, read that also but I still can't find a quote by a muslim using the word "condemn" There are - as you say correctly - plenty of newspaper articles using the word condemn but no individual quotes as far as I can see. I must be missing something so I'll go away and research it further. Not sure what you mean by sereotyping, don't think anyone has done that in the postings ?
Why is the specific use of the word, 'condemn' so important?
Why is the specific use of the word, 'condemn' so important?
A very good question and one I should have explained earlier. When an elected leader of any political or religious group expresses open condemnation, he or she takes personal ownership of the statement and it's intended message. Moral courage.is clear and evident
When a broad based representative group issue a statement of condemnation, not all need to agree with the contents or the intended message. No direct personal ownership of the message is identifiable.
I am still looking for a statement by a leading British Muslim who has openly condemned atrocities committed in Britain by Muslims. If I remember correctly, the American Muslim Leader did after 9/11. That appears to have removed all doubt of loyalty over there. Put another way, the word condemn needs to be said by a leading British Muslim. It should also be noted by some that this lack of open and clear expression is what gives encouragement and support to racists and nutcases like the BNP.
Then go and watch the BBC lcoal news archives for Dewsbury, Bradford and Birmingham to name but three of the dozens of local channels that had interviews with Muslim community leaders, which clearly and openly CONDEMNED acts of terrorism...
I really don't know what your intention is here, but what you are stating is wrong, there is and has been countless un-needed apologies and condemnations of the acts of terrorism by plenty of Islamic Muslims.
Why the fek should ordinary normal British citizens that happen to be Muslim, apologize and condemn the actions of known fundamentalist terrorists that they have absolutely no connections whatsoever with. I'm white, I'm damned certain i'm not in any way shape or form carrying any responsibilty for the dropping of nuclear weapons on Japan...
I have read them and still can't find an individual British Muslim leader using the word "condemn" in a speech that's directly related to terrorism. Granted, there are thousands of other Muslim leaders doing so around the world so I give up on this thread. You ask what my interest is in this, simple really. If I felt it necessary to apologise for something in an Islamic country, I would do so in the style, manner and language appropriate to that culture and tradition. I would not do it in my own culture, style etc because it would appear meaningless to the people I'm speaking to. "When in Rome, do as Romans do etc..You get the picture. This is my last posting on this thread.
Then go and watch the BBC lcoal news archives for Dewsbury, Bradford and Birmingham to name but three of the dozens of local channels that had interviews with Muslim community leaders, which clearly and openly CONDEMNED acts of terrorism...
I really don't know what your intention is here, but what you are stating is wrong, there is and has been countless un-needed apologies and condemnations of the acts of terrorism by plenty of Islamic Muslims.
Why the fek should ordinary normal British citizens that happen to be Muslim, apologize and condemn the actions of known fundamentalist terrorists that they have absolutely no connections whatsoever with. I'm white, I'm damned certain i'm not in any way shape or form carrying any responsibilty for the dropping of nuclear weapons on Japan...
It should also be noted by some that this lack of open and clear expression is what gives encouragement and support to racists and nutcases like the BNP.
I think thats a very valid point and probably clears up well any other intentions people may have read into this.
I'm white, I'm damned certain i'm not in any way shape or form carrying any responsibilty for the dropping of nuclear weapons on Japan...
well it was before your time so I accept your claim
I watch a lot of the discovery type programs where its been debated quite a bit, the thing I find about the dropping of those bombs was not how many it killed in one go, but how many more would have been killed if the war had gone on, the figures are usually given as the number of Americans soldiers that would of been killed, but how many more Japanese civilians would of been killed with conventional bombing ?
especially if you consider the attitude of the Japanese at the time had proved to be that they would rather all die than surrender - even civilians - due to Japanese propaganda.
the nuclear bombs killed less than the carpet bombing in Germany which was no less horrific. even the number of airmen that lost their lives bombing Germany was comparable. the difference was the huge psychological impact on the leadership.
I'm in no way responsible for this either as it was before my time too, just as the young people of japan arnt responsible for pearl harbor, but none the less I am sitting here able to say what I dislike about the government which I would not be able to do if we had lost the war. a war where desperate measure were taken in desperate times.
My point is peace has had to be fought for and the nature of war is horrific especially more so to people living in a peaceful world.
Why the fek should ordinary normal British citizens that happen to be Muslim, apologize and condemn the actions of known fundamentalist terrorists that they have absolutely no connections whatsoever with.
good point, but as I seem to be playing devils advocate here this morning, so just purely for the point of debate here, imagine if people had done similar atrocities in the name of atheism ?
would all atheists feel outraged ? would all atheists get tarred with the same brush ?
what would that mean if no atheist stood up and condemned it ?
Last edited by meow; 31-03-2009 at 13:15..
Reason: cat on keyboard
If I felt it necessary to apologise for something in an Islamic country, I would do so in the style, manner and language appropriate to that culture and tradition. I would not do it in my own culture, style etc because it would appear meaningless to the people I'm speaking to. "When in Rome, do as Romans do etc..You get the picture.
Making a statement to denounce a terrorist action isn't solely done to appologise to the people who have been attacked, it's also about sending a message to the people who carried out the attack stating that although you may think you represent us, you don't.
Islamic extremists claim/believe they are acting on behalf of ordinary Muslims, and that is why ordinary Muslims and Muslim leaders were quick to condem their actions, whether the word condem was actually used in their statements or not.
Islamic extremists claim/believe they are acting on behalf of ordinary Muslims, and that is why ordinary Muslims and Muslim leaders were quick to condem their actions, whether the word condem was actually used in their statements or not.
Yet again I await open condemnation by a leading British Muslim for the recent (premature) 'student' arrests in the Liverpool area. Let me see, what were their presumed intended targets ? - busy shopping areas over Easter Do-gooders etc are more than welcome to engage in a debate on this one
As a Muslim myself I find this thread pretty offensive, a few morons in here.
Rather than just throw insults back, how about actually explain your view of things on this situation and justify your position of thinking that some on this thread have acted in a moronic manner. Just calling people morons without justifying it makes you as bad as those your referring to. You also don't state who your actually disagreeing with.
Just cause your muslim, that says absolutely nothing to me, just the same as anyone else stating what race, religion, colour, sexual orientation or anything like that. I don't care for the tags, just the human thought process going on behind the exterior.
Do-gooders etc are more than welcome to engage in a debate on this one 
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